Favorite Pastimes!

[Kevin Mowad]

Is it wrong to watch movies and play videogames? If you are mature and understand that it is all fantasy and you have the knowledge and reason not to imitate what you see I don't see how it can be wrong? If we are living our lives for the Glory of God, I don't understand how watching a movie every now and then and playing video games could be a sin??

[Universal]

This could help answer your question:
http://usccb.org/movies/criteria.shtml

[Julianne]

I’d like to ask the same question but in reference to clubbing. Generally clubbing is a considered as a ‘bad or sinful’ thing with alcohol, drugs, lust etc. I do go clubbing sometimes and I perfectly understand and am aware of what teenagers get up to etc. However, If I do not imitate what people are doing and still attend, is it considered a bad thing? People say how I can handle being in an environment where I am surrounded by sin, but if you really think about it, in my opinion and correct me if I’m wrong everywhere we go we are surrounded by sin, negative thoughts, non believers etc. Please help me understand whether or not it is considered a bag thing, especially when one may not act like the majority and respect them selves in a decent way with respect in the clubbing environment. It is very hard detaching yourself from things in this world so I would like to know whether going to a club every once in a while makes me less of a catholic?
Thank you & God Bless

[DavidObeid]

As far as the games and movies go, there are no problems, unless the games or movies contain blasphemies or things that degrade or offend against your dignity (such as pornography or the glorification of some other sin). Notice that I didn't say "offend you", but "offend your dignity". Let me explain the distinction I am trying to make with a story of a discussion I had with a former boss.

My boss had me in his office for a meeting where he used bad language. He then apologised and asked if he had offended me. I told him that the problem with swearing was that he was offending himself. He didn't get it (surprise surprise!) and asked what I meant. I asked him why it was wrong to find a random guy on the street and beat him to death. He said that it was wrong because it was both illegal and immoral. I asked specifically why it was immoral, and he said (with considerable coaching from me) that it was immoral because the guy was a human being and therefore in the image and likeness of God.

"Great!" I said, "so would it be OK for me to find a random dog and beat it to death, since dogs aren't made in the image and likeness of God?"

He knew the answer was no, and tried to make a feeble case about the dog having rights. I explained that animals do not have rights in and of themselves (otherwise other animals would be acting immorally when they hunted and killed them, for example). I told him that it was not so much that the animal had rights as he had a responsibility to act in a certain manner because HE was made in the image and likeness of God, and that acting contrary to that image was an attack on his dignity (even if it didn't phase his conscience).

Same deal with the games and movies. It doesn't matter that you think you are "hard" enough to deal with the gratuitous violence, immodesty or immorality portrayed on them, subjecting yourself to such things is an offence against your dignity.

This principle applies to the clubbing question too.

Both the games/movies and the clubbing issue also have the problem of what can be called "defective tendencies". Sometimes a thing isn't objectively bad, but enough exposure to it can engender in us a tendency towards a certain way of thinking that makes something that is bad not so horrific to us, and hence something we are more likely to submit to when strong temptation comes. It's hard to get into specific examples without causing scandal to some readers, so this part of the question may be best answered in the confessional or in a face to face conversation.

Does this help?

[OneFaith]

Do you think Jesus Christ would go clubbing? I don't think so. "Therefore be perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect" (Matthew 5:48). Look, I'm not perfect and have done many things in my life that have offended Our Lord, but it's really important for all of us(including myself) to realise that making it to heaven and helping others to make it to heaven isn't just about going to Church, receiving Communion, Confession and prayer. It's more than that, your Life has to change. Being a Catholic is a way of Life, it's about what you do, what you say and where you go....so that the sacraments you receive have meaning to them and not received in vain. It's a way of life! Nightclubs have the presense of evil, whereas Church has the presense of the Holy Spirit. "You cannot serve two masters"

[MelanieM]

Great replies...

[Julianne]

Okay thank you both of you I completely understand .

[Stephen Spiteri]

Do you think Jesus Christ would go clubbing? I don't think so.
If it meant witnessing to others and sharing His message of forgiveness, love and salvation, then I don't think even Jesus would shun the notion of nightclubbing. Don't forget that the Pharisees questioned Jesus' affiliations:

"And the scribes and the Pharisees, seeing that he ate with publicans and sinners, said to his disciples: Why doth your master eat and drink with publicans and sinners? Jesus hearing this, saith to them: They that are well have no need of a physician, but they that are sick. For I came not to call the just, but sinners." - Mark 2:16-17

Scripture also tells us to be part of the world but not of the world (John 17:14-15). "... helping others make it to Heaven" as you put it, also means meeting people where they are at; this is what Our Lord did. If this means going to a nightclub and being the light that sits on the hill (Matthew 5:14, 16) for others to see, then so be it. Light shines even in the darkest of places.

As someone who enjoys playing video games (when time permits), there have been many opportunities where I have spoken to others about my faith and answered questions about the Catholic faith. When ever there are opportunities to share with others about the Good News, they should be taken no matter where that may be.

[Julianne]

This is what confuses me.. I understand both arguments where you say that a nightclub is the presence of evil and that a church is the presence of the Holy Spirit. But I also understand what spiritmagnus said about the whole " If this means going to a nightclub and being the light that sits on the hill (Matthew 5:14, 16) for others to see, then so be it. Light shines even in the darkest of places "..

If light shines even in the darkest of places and i compeltely argree with that then isnt that just contradicting what one faith says about a nightclub being the presence of evil because no matter what, Christ is always present with us no matter where we go, no matter what we do ?.. I know people don’t go clubbing to start conversation about their faith, I understand the purpose of a club and what goes on and I know the difference between a place like that and a Church for example, however if someone was to go clubbing with respect for themselves, believing that they are safe with the Christ beside them, are their souls still evil because there in a ‘evil environment’ where people generally commit sin ? and also David in reference to what you were saying about being surrounded by things that may offend our dignity, then isn’t that the point of prayer ? When I go out and see people doing things that are immoral, I personally don’t feel that offended I just go home and pray for them so that they may be led into the right direction with Christ... So wouldn’t that be the same when one is in a club ?

God Bless

[Kevin Mowad]

Hey there guys,

Wow some great material so far. To Julianne, I am in the same boat as you at the moment, I, like most guys out there, I enjoy a good action movie and like to play some pretty hardcore videogames...In saying that though, I guess what I've taken from these different responses is I shouldn't go out of my way to do these things, and if I'm put in those places, like in your case a nightclub I suppose we can look at setting the right examples. Just as Saint Francis of Assissi said best: "Preach the Gospel always, and if necessary use words..." That always stuck in my head, I guess because I am more of a do'er not a say'er. I remember when I was going clubbing like every weekend...before I met my girlfriend, who is now my wife, and when she showed me the faith it was so hard for me to let go of going clubbing with my mates, and especially with guys they like to make you feel bad when your not with the crowd. This led to so much confusion within me I mean these were mates that I'd hung around for years and now that I knew that going out wtih them to do the things they were doing was wrong, I knew in my heart I just couldn't go back...But the world, it grabs you so tight and it tries so hard to take you down with it...Lucky for me there was an angel standing by(my now wife) showing me God's love the Church and everything good that comes with it. Until eventually with alot of prayer, confession and participating more and more in things of the Faith I got away...Now, to this day I have not had the urge to step into a nightclub and if I am invited out with friends I will happily join them for the time before they go out but I just hang back when they go to the clubs. I try my best to set the right example. I hope that this helps you in some way, to see that I was in that position. In saying that as you've probably read, I have still yet to get myself away from these things that only corrupt us slowly but surely...But like I said The world , grabs you tight. I really need to pray harder...
God Bless

[Julianne]

Hey Kevin,oh Wowww thanks a lot for sharing something so personal, your story is actually pretty inspiring and its always good to know I’m not alone and that there are other people out there experiencing the same thing. It’s so hard when you know you agree with what these people are saying in the forums and what your friends (who are faithful) tell you, but at the same time you don’t want to leave that comfort zone in case you end up alone even thought deep down you know that’s exactly what you should do... and like you said the world does grab you tight.. I was thinking of that Saint Fransis of Assisi quote as well the other day; "It is no use walking anywhere to preach unless our walking is our preaching." . Like you said we need to pray harder, thanks a lot for sharing and your very lucky to have had that angel ( your wife) by your side =)
God Bless You.

[OneFaith]

Correct my fellow brother in faith. If her intentions of going to a nightclub is to preach the Gospel and to convert sinners then blessed is she. But IF she is going to have a fun time, then that's when double standards occur. That's the difference brother. That's what I meant. I don't think she would of posted the original question on the Catholic website if her intentions were to preach because she would of known her answer.

[Kevin Mowad]

I know that, But what I was explaining was that now she knows it is wrong, there are things we can do to make the situation better. I am speaking from experience here when I say that we cannot just switch our worldly desires off like a switch. But we can put into effect actions that will ultimately achieve complete detachement from this world. Please don't think I am having a go at you, because I really respect and fully take in your advice for myself also. I am just merely putting things in perspective for Julianne so that she can see how to go about achieving what we all know is ultimately what we must achieve. It is a tough battle out there and somethings we can fight head on but others we simply have to use a flanking position to tackle our opponent...
God Bless.

[OneFaith]

Brother I agree 100% with your post. I was replying to thespiritmagnus' post.

[Stephen Spiteri]

Correct my fellow brother in faith. If her intentions of going to a nightclub is to preach the Gospel and to convert sinners then blessed is she. But IF she is going to have a fun time, then that's when double standards occur. That's the difference brother. That's what I meant. I don't think she would of posted the original question on the Catholic website if her intentions were to preach because she would of known her answer.
Are you implying that it's sinful to have fun?

[Julianne]

Can i just say something.. it's abit off topic but it just came to me because you said that if i was having fun then that would be a bad thing.. and then spirit magnus said whether that would be considered as a sin..
soo my definition of a fun time at a night club is dancing and socialising with friends.. that is all.. and i completely undersatnd and agree with your posts when you say it has a presence of evil at times and i know that instead of going there i could be doing something more useful with my time such as praying etc.
so if i were to go to a 21st birthday in a backyard i too would do the same thing, but does that make it okay because its not in a actual CLUB ..
its just wierd because what people do in a club, they do at a 21st birthday anyway in a backyard or at home.. i dont know.. :S
so if we are talking sins here,
then technically it would be a sin also to go to a 21st bday at a house because i would be having fun..
and also onefaith you said that if i was preaching and converting sinnners thats a good thing but you said if i was having fun then thats not as good.. so lets take clubbing OUT of the equation completely for one second and jsut think of any other activity whether we are shopping, eating out, hanging with friends at home, watching a movie, playing sports, whatever .. if im having fun, but NOT preaching then im sinning ?.. is that what your saying or are you just referring to me having fun at NIGHTCLUBS only ?. and im sorry if i sound rude its just that this topic always comes up and i really really wanna fully understand it so know hard feelings :)

[New Jack Swinger]

Just because someone goes to a club, this does not mean they are commiting a sin. If it so happens that everytime you go to a club you find yourself committing sin, then it would be wise for you to cut back your visits. Frequenting a club will eventually takes its toll on anyone, particularly those (hopefully all of us) who are striving to live a holy life, so the frequenting of such places is not recommended either. Exposure to the immodesty, bad lyrics and bad company are not good for the soul. However, this doesn't make the idea of going to a club with a group of friends to have a dance sinful. You can go and have the right intentions, practice custody of the eyes, limit the drinks you have, dance away from the main crowd or even sit back and have a good convo. Just don't make it a habit.

I don't encourage clubbing. but from time to time I don't mind going to a club and bustin a few moves on the dance floor (only to good ol skool music that is :o). I know the effects of frequent clubbing and will avoid it. Sometimes going to the shopping centre is just as bad as a club.

Have good intentions, steer away from evil and pray harder.

[Julianne]

And also, i have this one friend who is Catholic but doesnt really believe in many of the Catholic Church Teachings and im constantly trying to preach and im constantly sending her videos and links but she literally refuses to watch them or read . Last night i sent her two videos about abortion and she didnt even open them .. so if im with her lets say having fun watching a movie at the cinemas, but God knows that I have tried preaching with all my heart to her , then according to what your saying i have led my self to sin this time because i failed at converting my friend ??

[Kevin Mowad]

Whoa man no way! In God's eyes you are trying. That is what counts. Look, at times we encounter people with hardened hearts. That does'nt mean we are not doing our job properly. If you can honestly say that you have been trying to help your friend see the truth then you shouldn't give up on yourself because you haven't seen much results. But that's where trust comes in. Trust in God that if you have merely planted the seed, He will help it to grow. Now, it goes without saying your extra prayers especially Our Holy Mother's Rosary is much needed on your part too. Don't think that nothing will happen, because really everything happens in God's time not ours. Trust me, I am in the exact same situation with people very dear to me and let me tell you, it is hard sometimes when you think that nothing is getting through but believe me when I say Prayer is the key to unlock the hearts of man...Don't give up on your friend. And don't give up on yourself...Trust In Jesus!

[Julianne]

yeah i know Kevin i agree with you 100% i just felt I had to ask the question anyway cos of another response
thank you for your replies

[Kevin Mowad]

No problems, Anytime! God Bless

[DavidObeid]

St. Louis de Montfort (and more recently Frank Duff, the founder of the Legion of Mary) both went into brothels with the intention of saving the women there. Nobody doubted for a moment what they were there for (St. Louis in particular - he'd kneel down and pray the sorrowful mysteries of the Rosary out loud until people would agree to listen to him preach on Confession!)

When we go to places that are occasions of sin, we could take a leaf out of their books.

[Matthew]

Clearly the issue here is one of prudence and not:

1) whether these things are intrinsically evil (not possible to prove per se)
2) whether we should have fun

Speaking for myself, yes, I have to admit I don't see in the present climate much wisdom in going to a club. That's a conclusion I've come to. I've given up many an occasion to do so and many 18ths and 21sts even if they weren't in a club but would have the same problem. I only go to such events held by my Catholic friends. I've survived. I'm not saying I expect other people to do that nor does it make me any better. But I do believe it is something that has made better off than otherwise!

[OneFaith]

Are you implying that it's sinful to have fun?

Of course it's not a sin to have fun. But going to a night club to do so plays right into the hands and traps of satan. If you want to go clubbing and expose yourself to girls wearing miniskirts, where you can see their underwear and having their breasts half popping out and not fall or committ adultry in the heart, then good for you, YOU STRONG MAN! I'd rather stay away from all that. That's just my opinion, and that's just from my past experiences going to nightclubs. I've seen it all, the violence, drugs, people getting on to each other etc etc. But that's just my opinion!

[Stephen Spiteri]

Of course it's not a sin to have fun. But going to a night club to do so plays right into the hands and traps of satan. If you want to go clubbing and expose yourself to girls wearing miniskirts, where you can see their underwear and having their breasts half popping out and not fall or committ adultry in the heart, then good for you, YOU STRONG MAN! I'd rather stay away from all that. That's just my opinion, and that's just from my past experiences going to nightclubs. I've seen it all, the violence, drugs, people getting on to each other etc etc. But that's just my opinion!
You must have obviously visited some rather dubious nightclubs or at least encountered individuals who behaved dubiously. I cannot say that my own experience of nightclubbing has been as dramatic as the picture you have painted, but I will agree that such behaviour does occur and this is unfortunate. But it is not as though individuals go to nightclubs to seek out the kind of behaviour and to immerse themselves in it. Some do and do so willingly and that in itself would be sinful.

I'm of the age now where that lifestyle is well and truly behind me (I'm married with young children), but this is not to say that I will not take my wife out to a pub for a meal or catch up with friends for a round or two of drinks. The focal point is on fellowship and building relationships. If your concern lies with the presence of evil in a specific environment or circumstantial setting, then you might as well live life like a hermit because you would be naive to think that temptation will not penetrate every facet of life. I'm a Religious Education teacher at a Catholic secondary school and daily I am presented with behaviour and attitudes that are contrary to the Gospel message, but I am aware of it and will not submit to it and will often speak out against even if it means losing the respect of some of my colleagues or being labelled a "fundamentalist". Speaking out in truth in the face of persecution is the cross we bear as Christians, but we carry it daily; I carry mine with pride.

A life lived in fear of sin or the thought of sin is no life at all. What do the scriptures tell us?

"For though I should walk in the midst of the shadow of death, I will fear no evils, for thou art with me. Thy rod and thy staff, they have comforted me." - Psalms 22:4 (D-R)

[Matthew]

I think pubs are a better than nightclubs on the whole.

I wouldn't assume avoiding them means you live like a hermit. I have and I don't live like a hermit.

You'll find these bad things everywhere such as at school or university but these places are where said people really let it hang loose.

The issue is one of prudence. But there is a wider issue as well and that is of building our own Catholic Culture. Our faith needs to inform a certain way of living and associating and affect how we run our social life. There might not be anything intrinsically evil in these things but we are "living off" what are now effectively secular places informed by a secular atmosphere. At least the early Christians were persecuted meaning they had to gather together quite separately from Roman society in the catacombs. They weren't hermits however since they had each other. We need to have our own way of associating that builds and informs the Catholic spirit.

[OneFaith]

Fantastic post Matthew. I agree 100%. You hit it on the head.

[Anthony Succar]

Apologies my friends, but the replies on this thread have ventured from the original topic - as such I am closing this thread.

If you feel that the answers have not helped, please either start a new thread or PM a TCF Apologetics Officer directly.