CCC 841 - Catholic views on Islam God

[MaronKnight]

Could someone please explain Paragraph 841 of the Catechism.

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

This is a big difference to our plan of salvation according to islam.

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," (Quran 5:73).

How can one believe that they worship the same God, when they dont believe that Jesus is Divine.

[DavidObeid]

Do Jews worship the same God as we do?

They don't believe that Our Lord is divine either.

[MaronKnight]

I was expecting a more elaborate answer from you David. :)

I know that Jews worship the same Yahweh God as we do. I believe that they do not have a full understaning of God but nevertheless, they still worship the one true God.

Muslims however worhship a totally different god, who is the author of evil, historical errors, abrogation, and carnal pleasures.

If the Bible OT and NT are the word of God, then their god must be a liar.

The NT does not contradict the OT but fulfills it. The Quran (supposedly the word of allah) contradicts both the OT and NT therefore one God must be a liar and we all know there is only one TRUE GOD who cannot lie.

Is this reasoning flawed?

Take it easy on me David when you respond to this one :)

[DavidObeid]

Muslims worship the God of Abraham. That's the One True God.

What they believe about Him is nonsense, but that does not mean He is not who He is.

It's like me saying that I believe Anthony Harb is sitting at his computer wearing a woman's ball gown and high heels. The fact (and I sincerely hope it is a fact) that you aren't does not mean that there is another Anthony Harb who is sitting at his computer wearing a woman's ball gown and high heels or that you don't exist. All it means is that my belief about the one true Anthony Harb is nonsense.

I had to poke a little bit of fun, but on the whole, was I gentle enough?

[MaronKnight]

So by this reasoning i can believe that a pigeon is a duck even if it does not walk or quack like a duck.

The fact that the duck exists does not matter anymore. My faith is now placed in the pigeon because the pigeon told me so.

The god of islam speaks, and tells them (through the quran) who he is. He also says he is the God of Abraham. He also says that he asked Abraham to sacrifice Ishmael and not Isaac. Is he speaking of the same Abraham?

Is he still the same God that we believe in speaking. Or is it really the pigeon pretending to be the duck?

I agree that they believe that they worship the one true God, but what they believe to be worshiping is definately not the one true God.

Does Satan Lie?
Does Satan pretend to be God?
Did Mohammad think he was possessed when the quran was revealed to him?

If a pigeon could speak and said to you he was a duck. Would you believe him?

[DavidObeid]

You are assuming that the God of Abraham actually spoke to Mohammed and revealed the Koran to him.

If they say they worship the God of Abraham then they do. If they say the God of Abraham told them something that is false, then they are mistaken about what He said, made it up and claimed He said it, or they got their so called "revelation" from a demon. The God they believe a whole lot of erroneous things about is still the God of Abraham.

Me thinking you are in the ball gown still makes you you, even if what I think about you (not some other Anthony Harb) is wrong.

If a pigeon forms an opinion about himself, then guess who the pigeon is forming an opinion about? Himself! If the same pigeon tells you he is a duck, then guess what the pigeon really believes? He really believes he is a duck. His belief is wrong, since he really is a pigeon, but he believes it nonetheless.

If a Muslim tells you he worships the God of Abraham, then guess who he worships? The God of Abraham! If the same muslim tells you that the God of Abraham revealed the Koran, then that is what he really believes. His belief is wrong, since God did not reveal Islam.

[MaronKnight]

You are assuming that the God of Abraham actually spoke to Mohammed and revealed the Koran to him


I'm not assuming - Muslims do. I know this is the not the case. So does believing that this is the case make it true?

[DavidObeid]

No, of course not. It makes them mistaken or deceived.

But it does not change who they are mistaken or deceived about: the God of Abraham.

[MaronKnight]

so i guess the operative word in ccc 841 is "profess". In reality, their faith is an imperfect version of the faith that comes from Abraham, but they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Abraham, and the church gives them credit for that.

[DavidObeid]

"The faith that comes from Abraham" is one of the most theologically densely packed expressions you could have written, but if you mean "the God Abraham believed in" then yes, you've got it.

[MaronKnight]

David thanks for your respones by the way. I must tell you though, that i find it hard to look at this issue subjectively.

It would be blasphemous to declare that these false religions are the working of God. On the Contrary ''all faithful disciples of Jesus Christ well know that the false religions are only instruments of the devil to deceive souls and place them beyond Salvation" - St. Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Philadelphians, VIII:2

[DavidObeid]

I never said they are the work of God. Only the Catholic religion was founded by God. (The Catholic religion is the authentic Jewish religion in full flower - modern day Judaism is a revolution against what God has revealed through Christ.)

[Matthew]

An article in This Rock magazine takes up this question:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2003/0301fea4.asp

Taken materially Muslims worship the same God in so far as they worship the supreme being of the universe and creator of everything which cannot but refer to God Himself. Formally we worship God as a Trinity of three person as he has revealed Himself.

If a person engages in philosophical reflection and reasons to the existence of a first cause then they cannot but be accepting the existence of the real God since the notion of the first cause coincides with Him. That doesn't mean they have yet accepted what Christian revelation has to say on the matter even though they may be aware of it.

This is something that has always been traditionally accepted by the Church. If you look up an old catechism such as the Catechism of Pius X it distinguishes the Muslims from idolators.

[DavidObeid]

Matt's right.

Here's the relevant quote from the Catechism of St. Pius X:


12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

It is question 12 in the section on The Communion of Saints (http://sites.google.com/site/apostolicapologetics/library/catechism-of-saint-pius-x/the-apostle-s-creed/the-ninth-article-of-the-creed#TOC-The-Communion-of-Saints)

[MaronKnight]

12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.


"those who die as infidels are damned". - The Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith, Pope St. Pius X, 1907

Pope Pius X long ago put forward that the modernist if they take logically their doctrine, would have no grounds for denying the Muslims their "experience" of "god" as being just as valid as that of another "believer" and hence he states:


"Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam?" - Pope Pius X - Pascendi, Sept. 8, 1907,

Islam clearly comes under the notion of false worship that (objectively speaking) is not rendered to God.

The psalmist tells us that "All the Gods of the Gentiles are Devils" (Psalm 96:5) and hence to whom do they render their worship? The Scriptures tell us clearly " They provoked him by strange gods, and stirred him up to anger, with their abominations. They sacrificed to devils and not to God: to gods whom they knew not: that were newly come up, whom their fathers worshiped not. " (Deut 32:16- 17 , Baruch 4:7)

They "sacrificed to devils and not to God" - regardless of whether or not they might have believed they were rendering homage to the True God, the reality is quite the contrary!

[Matthew]

Hi Anthony,

I think you need to separate out a couple of issues.

No one is saying that there is any validity in the way that Muslims worship God.

Secondly, have you read that article I linked to? That answers your question on the Scriptures regarding the pagan gods that are devils.

[MaronKnight]

‘What strange god?’, says Fr. Harrison, ‘a strange god is nothing more than the true god not clearly seen.’. . .

Yes i did read it, but i still dont agree.

There are true Gods and False Gods. They cannot be the same.

Can we make the same claim about the Followers of Zeus, Krishna etc.

There are true interpretations of the bible and false one. Not the same interpretation seen differently. John 1:1 in your bible is not the same as John 1:1 in the New World Translation of the Jehovahs Witnesses.

[Matthew]

Anthony,

When arguing it is not sufficient to say that one does not agree. One must give reasons why one does not agree.

There are not true Gods and false gods. There is only one true God whom different people may recognize (some in a deficient manner) and false gods as well which idolaters worship.

One cannot make the same claims regarding the followers of Zeus and Krishna since the conception of their deity does not even meet basic philosophical requirements.

Answer me this? Do the Jews still worship (albeit not in the way God now wants) the true God? To be true to St Paul you have to answer yes. If you answer yes then you are admitting one can still worship the true God even if one has not yet come to an acceptance of the doctrine regarding His inner life (the Trinity). Now you need to find another reason for why the Muslims do not worship the same God (once again not how he wants to be worshiped - this is not the same issue). Given as they do not believe in a limited finite being as the pagan idolaters do that the Bible is condemning then I suspect you will probably struggle to find what that thing is.

I'm aware of the different translation of Jn 1:1 but I'm not sure that really affects the issue of whether Muslims worship the God of Abraham.

[MaronKnight]

Matthew,

Can we agree that the whole foundation of islam is based on the koran.

Can we agree that Muslim believes that the koran is the word of God? The koran was not the inspired word of men but God himself put the words in the mouth of mohammad ( because supposedly mohammad could not read or write and this is the miracle of islam).

We must agree that the koran is the word of someone or something.

We must agree that koran is not the word of Almighty God

I then come to the conclusion that the someone or something speaking to muslims through the false koran is a false god. (Just because the false god believes he is the True God does not make it so.)

Lets us bear in mind that this is the same god that muslims worship and believe in. So i am inclined to put islam in the same category as idolaters.

I am the Lord thy God...Thou shalt not have strange gods before me....Thou shalt not adore them, nor serve them..." (Ex. 20:2-5).

The god of islam denies our God. The God of Judaism does not. There is a big difference between the two.

Does the Christian God contradict the God of the jews?

[MaronKnight]

Just in addition let me just mention some of the practices of islam.

hajj - which consists of Muslims walking around the the Ka'ba in Mecca.

The koran states that abraham built this. No historical proof sorry.

It is however a historical fact that the Ka'ba was first used to store the idols of travelling merchants. They also worship a black stone which is the relic of pre-islam idol worshipers.

The pre-Islamic Arabs used to be idolaters and worshiped the moring star and Aphrodite (often referd to as “the moon god” – hence the Islamic symbol of the crescent moon), whom in their own lanuage they called Khabar, which, means great.

Its looking more and more like pagan idol worship to me.

[DavidObeid]

Anthony,

If they worship the God of Abraham then they are not worshipping an idol.

If they say the God of Abraham spoke through Mohammed (however they express it) then they are wrong.

[DavidObeid]

Your other option is to say that Pope St. Pius X didn't understand the issue as well as you do.

[MaronKnight]

From what i have read from Pope St. Pius X he regards the Muslims as infidels. He also state that "those who die as infidels are damned".

So how do i see it any different than Pope St. Pius X.

Can you explain what he meant when he wote:

"Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam?" - Pope Pius X - Pascendi, Sept. 8, 1907

[MaronKnight]

If they worship the God of Abraham then they are not worshipping an idol.

Fair enough. But is it really that easy to profess that they worship the God of Abraham but the god that is actually being worshipped does not possess the same characteristics.

I can buy a ford and put a holden badge on it and claim it is a holden. We all know it is not.It does not make it a holden just because i placed that badge on it.

[DavidObeid]

From what i have read from Pope St. Pius X he regards the Muslims as infidels. He also state that "those who die as infidels are damned".

So how do i see it any different than Pope St. Pius X.

He does regard them as infidels, and he does say that if they die as infidels they are damned. No argument. Does he say they are idolaters? If not, then what they worship is not a creature, but the Creator.




Can you explain what he meant when he wote:

"Here it is well to note at once that, given this doctrine of experience united with that of symbolism, every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true. What is to prevent such experiences from being found in any religion? In fact, that they are so is maintained by not a few. On what grounds can Modernists deny the truth of an experience affirmed by a follower of Islam?" - Pope Pius X - Pascendi, Sept. 8, 1907

He is saying that what a muslim gets from Islam is not genuine. But that just means that what they believe about the One True God whom they worship is wrong.

[DavidObeid]

... it really that easy to profess that they worship the God of Abraham but the god that is actually being worshipped does not possess the same characteristics.

I can buy a ford and put a holden badge on it and claim it is a holden. We all know it is not.It does not make it a holden just because i placed that badge on it.

In that example you are deliberately trying to make me believe what you know is a lie. Say that I believe your lie, and then tell my children to believe the car is a Holden. There is no doubting that what my children love is a Ford, even though they think it is a Holden, right?

[MaronKnight]

Yes and that is my point exactly. Muslims are made to believe what is a lie. They are made to believe that they worship the God of Abraham. When in reality it is not the God of Abraham that they worship.

Your children believe the car is a Holden but really love the Ford. Muslims believe they worship a Holden but really it is a Ford that they worship. 2 completely different cars - just the same badge.

[DavidObeid]

No, you've got it the wrong way around.

Catholicism works like this:

Car = Ford, Object of worship = God.

Badge = Ford, Doctrines believed = truth about God.

Islam works like this:

Car = Ford, Object of worship = God

Badge = Holden, Doctrine's believed = Islam's incorrect view of God.

[MaronKnight]

Catholicism works like this:

Car = Ford, Object of worship = God.

Badge = Ford, Doctrines believed = truth about God.

AGREED

Islam works like this:

Car = Holden, Object of worship = False God. The Holden is not a Ford in any way.does not perform in any way like a Ford.

Badge = Ford, Doctrine's believed = Just because the badge says it is a Ford it means that it indeed becomes the one true Ford. The fact of the matter is the car is not a Ford. IT IS A HOLDEN.

[DavidObeid]

I'm obviously not good enough to explain this to you Anthony. I'll hand over to one of the other apologetics crew.

[MaronKnight]

What makes the God of Christianity the same as the god of Islam (apart from the profession from either that they are the God of Abraham)?

I could definitely list hundreds of qualities that the god of Islam possess that are different to the God of Christianity. Also many more professions from the mouth of the god of Islam (through the koran) that contradict the God of Chritianity.

[DavidObeid]

Anthony,

Assuming you are correct and Islam has a different God than the God of Abraham, can I ask:

1. Does the God of Islam exist, or are reason and the Catholic faith both flawed when they prove only one God?

2. If the God of Islam is a demon, then which demon? They profess to adore the God of Abraham. Is the God of Abraham a demon simply because what they profess about him is wrong?

Don't let a loathing of Islam's errors lead you into believing a lie about Islam itself. There is no hope for dialogue with Muslims if we can't start from a position of truth.

[MaronKnight]

Hi David.

1. The God of Islam does not exist, but muslims believe he does. Only the one true God exists so NO reason and the catholic faith are not flawed. Hence my point that who they worship is not God (even though islam claims he is)

2.Islam claims their god talks to them and his characteristics are shown through the koran. If the god of Islam is the same God as ours then surely they will speak the same language which is truth. If the god who speaks through the koran is not a false non-existant god (ie. a false idol), then he must be the true God and then guess what that means? we are wrong and they are right.

3. True Ecumenism requires all those outside the Church to come to the Ark of Salvation so that they may not perish. I will start from a position of truth that Christ is the only way to the father. Islam itself is a lie hence all the errors.

Blessed Nicholas Tavilich openly stated, "You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God's law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice."

The five disciples of St. Francis of Assisi, who when reproached by the followers of Koran for preaching against Mohammed, simply responded by saying "We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us" - Saint Francis of Assisi, A biography, by Omer Englebert, 1979, Pg. 178-9

[MelanieM]

Hi Anthony,

If you are based in Sydney, I think it may interest you in attending Fr Mitch Pacwa's talk tonight on Islam. It starts at 7.30pm at St Charbel's Maronite Catholic Church, 142 Highclere Ave, Punchbowl.

God bless

[MaronKnight]

I will be there.

[DavidObeid]

2.Islam claims their god talks to them and his characteristics are shown through the koran. If the god of Islam is the same God as ours then surely they will speak the same language which is truth. If the god who speaks through the koran is not a false non-existant god (ie. a false idol), then he must be the true God and then guess what that means? we are wrong and they are right.

I think this point is the heart of the misunderstanding.

The fact that the Koran is false does not mean that the God it is wrong about is not the true God.

The Koran is NOT inspired by the Muslim God. It is an invention of Mohammed, or someone connected to him in some way.

[Matthew]

I've been out all day and the thread has developed quite a lot in the meantime so I'll do my best to catch up.

Firstly, let's make it clear that the Second Vatican Council and the Catechism have spoken on the matter so for the faithful Catholic the question is not whether it is true but how to understand it better. So when it comes to a discussion of "how Catholicism works" - we already know how it works.

I realise for a lot of people it can be rather difficult to admit the abstract truth that they worship the same God either from personal experience with Muslims or some other reason.

We also have to be wary of collapsing separate issues together that are distinct which I think is one of the recurring problems here. To say they worship the same God does not mean for instance that their worship is just fine how it is. It is merely a claim regarding the object of worship.

So when you say:


Pope Pius X long ago put forward that the modernist if they take logically their doctrine, would have no grounds for denying the Muslims their "experience" of "god" as being just as valid as that of another "believer" and hence he states:

This is has nothing to do with the issue of whether they believe in the same God. What Pius is arguing against is that religion is based on experience. Since it is based on experience there is no reason why one experience should be regarded as more valid than another such that "every religion, even that of paganism, must be held to be true." Saying that Muslims still worship the same God does not mean their religion is true. Saying Jews worship the same God as us does not mean their religion is true either (it isn't since to be a Jew in the year 2010 AD means you don't accept Christ is the Messiah). Protestantism is a false religion as well but they don't worship a different God (obviously in their case it is more clear cut). But the point is, if one accepts the modernist presupposition, then every religion is equally true. We can all agree that is not the case. It is quite another matter.


Can we agree that Muslims believe that the koran is the word of God? The koran was not the inspired word of men but God himself put the words in the mouth of mohammad ( because supposedly mohammad could not read or write and this is the miracle of islam).

As David has pointed out they are wrong to think God authored the Koran just as Protestants are wrong to think he did not inspire the deuterocanonical books.


The god of islam denies our God. The God of Judaism does not. There is a big difference between the two.

No, they affirm their belief in the God Abraham as do the Jews. Both reject the Trinity or divine revelation regarding him.


Does the Christian God contradict the God of the jews

Yes, in the sense that we believe different (albeit true) things about God but it is the same object materially speaking. Formally we worship Him as revealed by Jesus Christ. Sometimes it helps to make some philosophical distinctions to work through the issues.


The pre-Islamic Arabs used to be idolaters and worshiped the moring star and Aphrodite (often referd to as “the moon god” – hence the Islamic symbol of the crescent moon), whom in their own lanuage they called Khabar, which, means great.

Yes, but that is not the Muslims. Mohammad borrowed some pagan practices but Islam follows the God of Abraham. It is in a way, to quote from Hillary Belloc, a heresy more than anything.


From what i have read from Pope St. Pius X he regards the Muslims as infidels. He also state that "those who die as infidels are damned"

Here we have a case of collapsing distinct issues. Are the Muslims infidels? Yes. They are infidels since they are unbelievers not accepting the divine revelation by Jesus Christ. The same applies to the Jews. Are infidels as such damned? Sure. But we aren't discussing their prospects of salvation. The issue is only and simply do they worship the same God even if it is not how he has revealed to us how he wants to be worshiped.


Can you explain what he meant when he wrote:

Already done above. Can you explain his traditional catechism which clearly says:


12 Q. Who are infidels?
A. Infidels are those who have not been baptised and do not believe in Jesus Christ, because they either believe in and worship false gods as idolaters do, or though admitting one true God, they do not believe in the Messiah, neither as already come in the Person of Jesus Christ, nor as to come; for instance, Mohammedans and the like.

Note that Muslims are distinguished from simple idolaters since they admit the one true God but do not believe in the Messiah.


If the god of Islam is the same God as ours then surely they will speak the same language which is truth.

You accept the Jews worship the same God. Do they speak the truth all the time? Do the Protestants speak the truth all the time? No. They are different religions but at the end of the day only one being qualifies as the Almighty creator of Heaven and Earth and that is God Himself. The pagans on the other hand worshiped limited finite beings or objects not a supreme being. The "material object" to use philosophic speak is the same even if the "form" is different.


"You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God's law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice."

A person could agree with every word in that without failing to hold that they worship the same God. Once again you are collapsing different issues into one. They are wrong that the Koran is God's law but that doesn't mean they have a different God. They are simply mistaken as to what he has and has not done.

[danieljankovic]

PAX,

Personally, I can see how Muslims believe that they worship the God of Abraham, in theory, but practically they don’t. Muslims say that they are followers of the Old Testament but their texts and traditions prove otherwise; such as Ishmael being taken up to the mountain for sacrifice instead of Isaac. Where does it say this in the Torah or the Holy Bible?

And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers. Surah 3:54
This does not sound like my God nor the God of Abraham.

Muslims believe that they carried the line of Abrahamic religion from Judaism to Christianity and then finally to Islam. To be a Christian means to follow Jesus Christ as Lord and God. They do not!

"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them," Surah 5:73

If I am married to a woman, and two other men are married to a woman, does that mean that because we are all married to one woman that we are thereby married to the same woman? No.

The Quran also contradicts the visitation of the Angel Gabriel to Our Lady in Surah 3... doesn't sound very Christian to me.

Mohammed was not inspired by the Holy Spirit, nor was he visited by any messenger(s) of God. By the process of elimination it was either completely fanaticized or Mohammed was visited by the devil and or his angels. The predominant 'angel' that spoke to him never introduced himself as Gabriel, this was the idea of Mohammed's Christian wife Khadija.

[danieljankovic]

PAX,

I have been researching aswell as asking priests all week regarding this issue since I came across information regarding salvation. Priests who I asked who validate my points include Fr Packwa, Fr Rizzo and Fr Terrence.

In relation to the issue of the 841 Section of the Catechism regarding Muslims being somehow involved in the plan of salvation I say that that statement is utterly FALSE

One point we must all firstly understand and agree on is that the Catechism is not Dogmatic, it is Doctrine. What is in the Catechism is only based on Dogma.
I am a traditional Tridentine (Latin Rite) Catholic, and believe that the produce of Vatican II somewhat 'watered down' aspects of the Mass and Doctrine due to ambiguous text which was the work of Protestant Bishops in the hope to form ‘unity’ between Christians, to modernize and to promote a sense of inclusiveness to peoples of other faiths.

This ‘watering down’ is evident in the 841 section of the 1983 Catechism proceeding Vatican II.

“The 1983 Catechism compilled following Vatican II has weak sections in it. Section 841 being an example of that” as described by Fr Rizzo.
To believe that Muslims, Jews schismatics, heretics or the pagans can enter the Kingdom of God is directly contradicting and challenging Ex Cathedra and Church Dogma which has been reinforced time and time again by numerous Popes. If you do not agree with Church Dogma then you are a heretic.

“The most Holy Roman Catholic Church firmly believes, professes, and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews, heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her[the Catholic Church]. Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Bull Cantate Domino, 1441

Pope Eugene IV spoke as Ex Cathedra which we all know falls under Papal Infallibility meaning that what he said was inspired directly by the Holy Spirit therefore being absolutely correct.

Other examples include;
“With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.

“With Faith urging us we are forced to believe and to hold the one, holy, Catholic Church and that, apostolic, and we firmly believe and simply confess this (Church) outside which there is no salvation nor remission of sins” Pope Boniface VIII, Bull Unam Sanctum, 1302.

This point is further supported by ALL the Early Church Fathers including Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria and Cyprien of Carthage. Apart from Church Fathers it is also adamantly reinforced by the great Church Doctors and Saints including St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Jerome, St. Augustine St. Peter Julian Eymard, St. John Vianney and St. Prosper of Aquitaine.

There can be no contradiction of Church Dogma, ever.

There are 3 types of Baptism; by Water, Blood and Desire.
We all know what a Baptism of water is, A Baptism of blood is that if any individual gives up their life in the name of Jesus Christ, they are thereby saved and may enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
Baptism of Desire is if an individual has no knowledge of the true faith and genuinely seeks God, despite their lifestyle and mistakes, can have a Baptism of desire. This is extremely rare.

Example:
If a Muslim lives for 100 years to the day, and on the 99th year with 2 minutes before death, has a complete revelation, he may have a baptism of desire and therefore can be saved.

A Baptism of Desire is a Perfect act of contrition combined with A Perfect act of Faith. An example of this would be the thief on the cross beside Our Lord Jesus Christ on Calvary.

39 And one of those robbers who were hanged, blasphemed him, saying: If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. 40 But the other answering, rebuked him, saying: Neither dost thou fear God, seeing thou art condemned under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this man hath done no evil. 42 And he said to Jesus: Lord, remember me when thou shalt come into thy kingdom. 43 And Jesus said to him: Amen I say to thee, this day thou shalt be with me in paradise. Luke 32: 39-43

Although the 'good' theif had lived a wicked life, in his last moments he displayed an act of perfect contrition and of perfect faith therefore attaining a Baptism of Desire.

If an individual (the Muslim in the example) is of Good will, and is genuinely seeking the Truth, God will not withhold the Catholic faith from that person. He will even send, in a miraculous manner, the means of salvation to that person. (example within Acts 8: 26-40)

Acts 8: 26-40 is the story of Phillip being suddenly commanded by the Holy Spirit to arise and go forth. Phillip is instructed to get into his chariot and travel down the road. On the way he meets an Ethiopian eunuch reading the works of Isaiah who ultimately asks Phillip to Baptise him. This is the example of God sending salvation to those who seek it even through miraculous means.

If you are thinking … wait, what about those who never heard of Jesus Christ or the one true God…
What we also must remember is that faith is not a gift given to all.
"Invincible Ignorance", says St. Thomas Aquinas, "is a punishment for sin not a blessing or a means of salvation.

And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that perish. II Corinthians 4:3

Or hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump, to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? Romans 9:21

Will any man dare to say that God did not foreknow those to whom He would give to believe, or whom He would give to His Son, that of them He should lose none? St. Augustine

5 And the churches were confirmed in faith, and increased in number daily. 6 And when they [the Apostles] had passed through Phrygia, and the country of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia. 7 And when they were come into Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not. 8 And when they had passed through Mysia, they went down to Troas. 9 And a vision was shewed to Paul in the night, which was a man of Macedonia standing and beseeching him, and saying: Pass over into Macedonia, and help us. Acts 16: 5-10

Although it seems a horrible way of looking at it, maybe those who do not hear the word of God are not to be saved as shown in the passage above.
For He saith to Moses: I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy; and I will shew mercy to whom I will show mercy. Romans 9:15

Just as the natural law is built into every man –knowing not to murder and cheat and the desire for love- every man is made with the desire to worship God. If he does not seek and therefore not know God it is through his own fault. If a man truly seeks God then he will be shown truth.

During the dialogue between Abraham and God regarding the fate of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genisis 18: 16-33, Abraham reverently inquires of God if he would spare the city if 50 righteous people were found in it, then 45, then 30, then 20 or even 10, with God affirming he would not destroy it after each request, for the sake of the righteous yet dwelling therein.

This final example further reinforces the fact that if there is a rightous man -whether it be a man in Macedonia, an Ethiopian eunuch or a family in a condemned city-, God will have that person saved if it is His will.

A man may live their life as a Muslim, Jew, Schismatic, Heretic or Pagan but to attain salvation they must die as a Catholic –Baptised either by or through water, blood or desire-.

When describing the Catholic Church, Church Fathers have used the example of Noah's ark, which alone saves from the flood. I am aware of the fact that God is not held to do anything, but this is Church Dogma and the Holy Spirit would not have interceded or inspired these teachings unless they were His will.

Therefore, there is no salvation for anyone outside the Catholic Church.

[DavidObeid]

Daniel,

You've pointed out how Muslims are wrong about God and not members of the Catholic Church. Can you explain to me how Islam being wrong about God means that the God they are wrong about is not the God they are wrong about?

[DavidObeid]

...
In relation to the issue of the 841 Section of the Catechism regarding Muslims being somehow involved in the plan of salvation I say that that statement is utterly FALSE...

Daniel,

Two questions:

1. Are Muslims Islam, or are they followers of Islam?

2. Does God desire Muslims to be saved?

[Matthew]

Once again Daniel you've made Anthony's mistake of collapsing other issues into this issue. We aren't talking about salvation outside the Church or whether Islamic teachings are in accordance with Christianity (of course not or it wouldn't be not Christianity). For that matter given as Christianity as a whole is identical with the Catholic Faith many teachings of Protestants are not Christian either since their doctrines come from themselves not from Christ or Christian.

The Catechism was issued in 1992 not 1983. The Code of Canon Law was issued in 1983. For the record, while he is a good priest, I once publicly corrected Fr Rizzo on the very issue we are discussing in this thread and all he could really do was say "you sound like you know what you are talking about."

[New Jack Swinger]

I've been out all day and the thread has developed quite a lot in the meantime so I'll do my best to catch up.

Firstly, let's make it clear that the Second Vatican Council and the Catechism have spoken on the matter so for the faithful Catholic the question is not whether it is true but how to understand it better. So when it comes to a discussion of "how Catholicism works" - we already know how it works.

Without copying the whole reply, that was a great post.

[Matthew]

This ‘watering down’ is evident in the 841 section of the 1983 Catechism proceeding Vatican II.

“The 1983 Catechism compilled following Vatican II has weak sections in it. Section 841 being an example of that” as described by Fr Rizzo.

Then the Catechism of Pius X is a 'watered down' presentation of the faith as well.

[danieljankovic]

Daniel,

Two questions:

1. Are Muslims Islam, or are they followers of Islam?

2. Does God desire Muslims to be saved?

1. I might be mistaken here but I thought Islam was Muslims as a whole, as a collective. Just as i can't say I am Christianity.

2. Yes i do believe that God desires Muslims to be saved, he wan'ts all his children to be saved.

[Matthew]

Islam is the religion. Muslims as a whole are the sum total of adherents. The Catholic Faith is not all Catholics. All Catholics believe in the Catholic Faith.

[DavidObeid]

...i do believe that God desires Muslims to be saved, he wan'ts all his children to be saved.


841 ...The plan of salvation also includes ... the Muslims...

Umm... hello?

[danieljankovic]

Im not contending that. God wants the muslims to be saved, but to be saved they have to die as a Catholic -by baptism of desire-

[Matthew]

That's true Daniel, no one is contesting that.

[danieljankovic]

That's true Daniel, no one is contesting that.

Which part of what I am saying do you agree was true? That im not contending the salvation or that to be saved they must die as a catholic?

PAX

[DavidObeid]

God wants the muslims to be saved, but to be saved they have to die as a Catholic -by baptism of desire-

That's true, no one argues with that (not even the Catechism that you rail against!).

I'd add though that Baptism of desire isn't the ideal way for them to be saved. Visible entry to the Church by Sacramental Baptism is the ideal.


"No one after lighting a lamp covers it with a vessel, or puts it under a bed, but puts it on a stand, that those who enter may see the light." St. Luke 8:16

[Matthew]

I agree with you that they need at least baptism by desire.

But that wasn't the topic of the thread.

[danieljankovic]

That's true, no one argues with that (not even the Catechism that you rail against!).

I'd add though that Baptism of desire isn't the ideal way for them to be saved. Visible entry to the Church by Sacramental Baptism is the ideal.

I agree, it is not ideal but it is the 'last hope' if necessary. Muslims are God's children aswell, and Jesus died for them on the cross just as He did for me.

When I have spoken to people on the Catechesis' section in question, I now realise that their interpretation was completely wrong and not the passage itself. By supporting that [Passage 841 etc] I thought that both you Mr Obeid and Matthew held that position too. From my personal experience, most people are now under the impression that Muslims now 'go to Heaven as Muslims' from such a misinterpretation of the passage.

[Matthew]

That's what this forum is for :D To help iron these things out. Myself and Mr Obeid are far from being indifferentists or amongst those who believe everyone is sailing off to heaven in a pink sail boat.

[danieljankovic]

My bad,

But i thought I did make a valid point, only now do I realise we were making the same point all along lol!

p.s. This is the best site ever! :)

[Matthew]

Fr Mitch Pacwa (no friend of Islam!) stated in his talk today that the Muslims do indeed worship the God of Abraham even if they have false misconceptions of Him.

[frjohnlm]

hi guyz, i hope i'm not barging here... allow me to share in this interesting thread.
I am proud to say, as the team have stated and demonstrated in regard to the God of Islam from a Catholic stand point is agreeable… in order not to get caught up with the ‘cat chasing its tail effect’ I simply suggest that, if a person has trouble in discerning the good elements that are of God in a corrupt world we should refer to one of the best missionaries the world has ever seen, St Paul.. allow me to draw your attention to one of his challenging Acts 17: 23 (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=17&l=23&f=s#x)
“For passing by, and seeing your idols, I found an altar also, on which was written: To the unknown God. What therefore you worship, without knowing it, that I preach to you:”

In the same Spirit that St Paul was able to discern the good elements of God amidst the profanities so too the Church is empowered..The pointing-the-finger doesn't save but rather it scatters..thank God the Church is over its self-identity crisis and it is in the mode of ‘dialogue’. More so, I am very confident that the Church won’t error at that neither.

However, as for the ‘course’ of this dialogue, let me suggest the same point as the team has made but from a different angle:
Yes it is true, we must separate the ‘theological’ discourse from the discourse of: Philosophy, Ethics, Liturgy, Cannon Law, Spirituality, Pastoral Care, History etc.. you must agree, these are separate disciplines..therefore, to understand what the (CCC) Church is really saying we must have a degree of understanding concerning these differing disciplines..

Having said that, we are not implying that, if a faithful is ignorant to these disciplines they won’t be saved, by all means it is not so..but you must agree that an informed faith serves effectively on a notable note.. especially when it comes to teaching the Faith.

..if we consider to discern the true elements amidst other religions and cultures in order to avoid throwing out the baby with the water bath then put on the salvific cap like St Paul and subdue the destructive judgmentality and the pointing of the finger, for only then we can be ready, like St Paul (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=51&ch=17&l=23&f=s#x), to discourse with the lost sheep / the good intentions that got it wrong..

Now, keeping in mind, “Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:..” Matt 7:21 (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=21&f=s#x).

Theologically speaking, does anyone know what God is for Islam and for Jews?

e.g., Allahu Akbar الله أكبر = ‘God the Greatest (Almighty)’ = אללה אכבר
Allahu RaHman RaHiim الله الرحمن الرحيم = God the Merciful
Allahu Khaliku الله الخالق = God the Creator


p.s... this exercise can lead to understanding CCC 841 more; the thread in question or the question in thread..
p.s.s. main stream Islam believe that the 'Messiah did come born miraculously from Mariam the purist among women without human dealings, and that the Jews refused God´s Messenger, that is why God sent another prophet with a forceful mission.¨... until now the Jews unlike Islam say Jesus of Nazareth was a false prophet..
p.s.s.s. more food for thought, apparently, Islam also believes the Messiah, NOT Mohammad, will come again to judge humanity..
p.s.s.s.s. all this doesn't mean that they are NOT pointing to the same Lord but however, from differentiated distances and degrees in aproximity to God; this framework also applies for the inner circles of the Christian denominations


“Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven:..” Matt 7:21 (http://drbo.org/cgi-bin/d?b=drb&bk=47&ch=7&l=21&f=s#x).


if still in doubt, to make it clearer we must consider also what the other religions say about the enemies of الله/God/אֱלוֹהַ such as;

..consider what they say about the devil/الشيطا/השטן

e.g. Shaitan mukhadi3 الشيطان مخادع = Devil the deceiver = מרמה השטן

etc etc

can we see common grounds for dialogue..?

[MaronKnight]

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

[Matthew]

Thanks MaronKnight. That is a very true quote coming as it does from the Bible after all! However if it is intended as being contrary to what the Catechism states in CCC 841 I don't think it works like that.

[DavidObeid]

Anyone who runs ahead and does not continue in the teaching of Christ does not have God; whoever continues in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. 2 John 1:9

Read the chapter. St. John is speaking about those gone out (past tense). The target of the comments is the gnostics, not the coming heresy of Islam.