Changes in the church.

[MaronKnight]

Good Afternoon.

I really don't like pointing out any negatives about the church, but i do get asked about it quite often and though the forum would be a great place to get some responses and other people thoughts on the subject.

I for one have noticed a change in the church, whether this change has to do with the members of the church or with the leaders, i cannot say the cause.

A couple of points i would like to touch on.

1. Altar Boys. When i was growing up, boys in our school were lining up for the opportunity to become an altar boy. I was an altar boy and i truly believe that being so close to God on the altar has kept me close to him. Now we have Altar Girls (nothing wrong with it), but this seems to be due to a lack of boys wanting to be servers. I read somewhere that many priests were once altar boys themselves.

2. Priests. There seems to be a lack of men entering the priesthood, and most of the priests are coming from overseas. Many priests that i know are over 50 years old and i only know 1 seminarian. Again, when i was younger it was such a blessing to hear about a priest or nun in your family. Now it seems to be frowned upon. Where are the priests going to come from in the generations to come.

I was asked recently about the "evolution" of the church and whether it needs to move with the times. A friend of mine was even offended because the priest mentioned that we should "sweat" for our faith in the homily last week, which is the least we could do in comparison with the Matyrs that laid down their life for the truth.

I look forward to your comments. Does anyone else see a change?

[DavidObeid]

Good Afternoon.

I really don't like pointing out any negatives about the church, but i do get asked about it quite often and though the forum would be a great place to get some responses and other people thoughts on the subject.

That's what we are here for :)


I for one have noticed a change in the church, whether this change has to do with the members of the church or with the leaders, i cannot say the cause.

I can't say either, but as a general rule, God only permits evil so that He can draw a greater good form it.


1. Altar Boys. When i was growing up, boys in our school were lining up for the opportunity to become an altar boy. I was an altar boy and i truly believe that being so close to God on the altar has kept me close to him. Now we have Altar Girls (nothing wrong with it), but this seems to be due to a lack of boys wanting to be servers. I read somewhere that many priests were once altar boys themselves.

Pope Pius XII said that serving at the altar (as an altar boy) was meant to serve as a preparation or to cultivate vocations to the priesthood. You observation isn't wrong! I think that the move to allow female altar servers turned a lot of boys off - it stopped being a masculine thing to do, so why would a boy want to do it?


2. Priests. There seems to be a lack of men entering the priesthood, and most of the priests are coming from overseas. Many priests that i know are over 50 years old and i only know 1 seminarian. Again, when i was younger it was such a blessing to hear about a priest or nun in your family. Now it seems to be frowned upon. Where are the priests going to come from in the generations to come.

Vocations come from generous families - the number of children people have has decreased, and so the willingness of parents to have their children enter into the service of the Church has decreased. As a general rule, big families tend to produce more vocations. Fr. Peter Joseph and his brother Fr. Luke Joseph come from a family of twelve children.


I was asked recently about the "evolution" of the church and whether it needs to move with the times. A friend of mine was even offended because the priest mentioned that we should "sweat" for our faith in the homily last week, which is the least we could do in comparison with the Matyrs that laid down their life for the truth.

Tell your friend that he's soft. Sweating is the least he should do.


I look forward to your comments. Does anyone else see a change?

I see a change, but it isn't for the worst. A conversation I had with Fr. Wade Menezes from the Fathers of Mercy last year gave me a lot of hope. He pointed out how the Church in Australia seems to be 20 years behind the Church in the USA, and he said that over there they are starting to get Bishops who teach the truth and parishes that actually work to foster, not cripple, authentic Catholic life.

[danieljankovic]

I am very old fashioned as most people on the forum can tell from my previous posts. I believe that women shouldn't step foot past the barrier of the altar (up the step). It's the whole movement of inclusiveness that’s ruining things. The altar is the domain of men, and it is an honourable role to be a server or even up there for any reason at all. I serve at Maternal Heart Lewisham in the Latin Rite when I’m not at St Charbel’s and to be honest... it’s the best feeling ever. By having children and girls up there diminishes the importance of the role. When you are serving you feel like a true soldier for Jesus Christ, like the candle is your spiritual weapon against evil.

I know personally of about 7 or 8 young men that are joining seminaries, it’s really exciting.

The greatest honour in the ancient and especially in the medieval world was to be a Priest. They were men of power and influence within the communities. When young men see priests now in these new Masses it makes them think 'why on earth would I give up a family for this?’ But that is slowly changing. We need to motivate them and let them know that as a Priest, they are in one of the most important and respectable roles of society.

The Church in Sydney Australia is going to explode within the few years. Everyone who comes here can see it. We are all zealous and so enthusiastic about our faith. The Christian Churches are improving. Rather than having so many Churches, it seems that more and more people are flocking to the ‘good’ Masses and this is making everyone go back to tradition.

[jzeitouni]

Daniel your so sexist... Get with the times!! :P
Only kidding :)
I totally agree with you on the area that the sanctuary is a place for men and not women. The more I learn about my faith, mass etc, the more I am reluctant to step onto the sanctuary to read and the more I am reluctant to see other women do that as well, whether it is for reading or altar serving.
I agree with David on the point that altar serving is no longer something that attracts boys because of the fact that it has become more feminised unfortunately. Altar serving went from a role that fosters and generates vocations to now being not that significant and something that anyone can do. Im not sure if im jumping to conclusions but i can see a clear link between the role of an altar server being degraded and the decline in vocations.

I have another question relating to changes in the church... I would love to know the reasons why certain traditions during mass were changed. For instance I was watching a movie on a saint yesterday and noticed in the mass they had a tall and wide latice fence that separated the laity from the sanctuary and altar. The more i watched it, the more beautiful i thought such a tradition was. Why would something like that be changed, something that brings more mystery and beauty to the mass?? I just think that is quite sad. And if the answer is for inclusion and to appeal more to people, then my question to that is, isn't the mass meant to be something pleasing to Our Lord and not there for us to please people??

[DavidObeid]

Hi Jessica,

If I understand you correctly, the partitions you are talking about were only found in enclosed convents or monasteries. The area "inside" was for the monks or nuns who sung the office or the Mass in choir, the outside was for visitors to attend Mass or join in the Office, but stay away from those who were cloistered.

The last time I was at the Tyburn Convent at Riverstone in Sydney's northwest they still had such a grille. That was about 11 years ago.

[jzeitouni]

Oh ok so it wasn't something they had for the laity. I understand now.
Thanks David :)

[Matthew]

And reading used to be done outside the sanctuary.

[jzeitouni]

Where would it be done?? I have never heard of that Matthew... wish it was like that now!!

[DavidObeid]

It was done in the nave of the church.

The idea went something like this:

The church is meant to represent the universe. The sanctuary is heaven. The nave is the rest of the universe. The Gospel is Jesus Christ, it is read in the Sanctuary (heaven) because that is where He is. The readings are meant to be lessons for us to get to heaven (so they are read out of the sanctuary), the homily is preached here too, for the same reason. Holy Communion is given at the gates to the sanctuary - heaven comes to us and we go to it to get a foretaste of the eternal union we will have with Christ in eternity.

There's about a trillion more images, but that's the basic idea.

[jzeitouni]

WOWWWW!! What a beautiful description.

[Matthew]

Sorry, I had my facts mixed around. The readings were done from the sanctuary but I don't think there were lay readers back then.

What I was thinking of is the provisions of the 1975 Roman Missal envisaged women doing the readings outside of the sanctuary in some location to be determined. The point of this is what is important was the place not so much the function that a woman carried out.

[DavidObeid]

Matt,

Some Eastern Rites (eg the Liturgy of St. Mark used by the Copts) have the reading proclaimed outside of the Sanctuary, and I am sure I've been to Tridentine masses where the Epistle was not read from the Sanctuary too.

[New Jack Swinger]

It was done in the nave of the church.

The idea went something like this:

The church is meant to represent the universe. The sanctuary is heaven. The nave is the rest of the universe. The Gospel is Jesus Christ, it is read in the Sanctuary (heaven) because that is where He is. The readings are meant to be lessons for us to get to heaven (so they are read out of the sanctuary), the homily is preached here too, for the same reason. Holy Communion is given at the gates to the sanctuary - heaven comes to us and we go to it to get a foretaste of the eternal union we will have with Christ in eternity.

There's about a trillion more images, but that's the basic idea.

That is dynamite!

[Matthew]

Maybe my mistake was to think I was mistaken!

[frjohnlm]

..speaking of Matyrs, the change i can note is the fact that the Church is always at its best when under persecution..

[cmnunis]

Matt,

Some Eastern Rites (eg the Liturgy of St. Mark used by the Copts) have the reading proclaimed outside of the Sanctuary, and I am sure I've been to Tridentine masses where the Epistle was not read from the Sanctuary too.

It is true in the Melkite Rite as well.