Judas Betrayal

[MaronKnight]

Hello all.

Could all you smart folks shed some light on Judas and his betrayal of our Lord.

The matter relates to free-will and whether or not Judas was indeed responsible for his actions and whether this is an example for the case against free-will.

If there is free-will then Judas would have a moral responsibility over his actions. This means that the hatred shown towards Judas in the Gospels is indeed justified; because given free-will Judas CHOSE to betray Jesus.

However the gospels tell us that Jesus knew who would betray him and thus fate comes into play. If fate is true then Judas was not at fault as his decision was already made, thus causing the prophecy to be fulfilled. Was Judas simply a pawn of fate? It seems Judas' actions were governed by something else.

If the bible says the devil entered Judas. Was it not then the Devil who betrayed Jesus and not Judas?

When Jesus was picking his disciples. Did he know that Judas would betray him?

Thanks Guys in Advance.

[New Jack Swinger]

Great post....

[danieljankovic]

This will probably go down in the area of pre-destination or something.

[DavidObeid]

Hi MaronKnight,

Our Lord knowing that Judas would betray Him (and how, and when and why) does not mean that Judas was pre-programmed by God to do what he did.

It was Our Lord's knowledge of Judas' free will decision (known to God from the foundation of the world - just as all of our decisions are known to Him) that allowed Our Lord to draw out the great good that He did from it.

What is important is that we do not make Calvin's mistake of thinking that predetermination is the same thing as pre-programming (not Calvin's word, but it captures his idea). God's predetermined plan takes into account Judas' free will decision, it does not cause it.

[Matthew]

God's knowledge of what we will do does not take the free choice out of what we do anymore than our memory causes our past actions.

[MaronKnight]

Thanks again Guys. Thats how i understood it but didnt quite know how to put it in words.

I know that God is not bound by time and space, therefore he knows what is going to happen as if it has already happened.

[DavidObeid]

More than that - God knows not only all that is, was and will be, He also knows all that could be.

[jzeitouni]

So God also knows other paths and options that we could have taken... so for instance if some significant event that changed history didnt happen, what the world would have been like or if we chose to take a different path along the way, what our life would have been like?? WOW talk about all knowing!!

[MaronKnight]

So God also knows other paths and options that we could have taken... so for instance if some significant event that changed history didnt happen, what the world would have been like or if we chose to take a different path along the way, what our life would have been like?? WOW talk about all knowing!!

It is God we are talking about here. Are you really that surprised? :D

[Matthew]

Yes, that's correct. He knows all possibles not just all actuals.

[jzeitouni]

No im not surprised lol... I just never thought of His omniscience in that way!!

[DellaJMJ]

Ok this may seem like a silly question, but why did it have to be 'Judas' I mean why was he the one chosen to betray him...had he not betrayed him what would have happened? Would another disciple have done so? Or would the course have changed completely?

[DavidObeid]

The reason why what we do is so important is because our choices have eternal consequences. How/what/why/where/when these consequences play out we don't always get to see.

[MaronKnight]

Hi David

So can we say that when God created man, he also created all of mankind from Adam until the end of the world.

He also knows how everything turns out for every person. Is this what Matthew 10:29-30 refers to?

[DavidObeid]

Hi MaronKnight,

No, God creates us at the moment of our conception. We don't have a pre-existence, even though God knows who/what/where/when/if/how we will be and all that we will think and do before we exist.

[MaronKnight]

Jeremiah 1:5 - I knew you before you were ever in the womb - Wasn't he created before he was in the womb?

Mary's immaculate conception - Surely God must have known she would say yes to the angel Gabriel (out of free will) before she was conceived. Did God create Mary sin free after the conception, whilst in the womb or before conception?

Can you see my rationale.?

[DavidObeid]

I know that it is going to rain next month, but that doesn't mean the rain already exists.

Foreknowledge by God is not the same as pre-existence.

[DavidObeid]

Having said that, the forecast for rain around here isn't that good - shame, because it was shaping up to be a great spring, please add this to your prayer intentions.

[frjohnlm]

the quotes "every hair on our head is numbered"or "I have known you before you were conceived" come to mind as i engage this thread..

To simply help the mind engage, consider..if I can predict what corrupt persons would do if opportunity allows them in a given situation how much more God can predict in detail any thing for any time..without 'breaking the rhythm' of the God given freewill or natural law for that matter..